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Price & Profits and Manufacturing Location
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Joaco Colmenar
vergulito

Hello. I hope the time I put into this post is perceived as a simple contribution to the discussion of two issues often debated in these public forums.

Please, no flames. Please.

These are only my views. I don’t mean to pontificate. Disagree all that you want, but please no insults.

The first topic is about pricing & profits.

First, I want to clarify that MSRP is not the retail price, (necessarily). MSRP is an accronym (sp?) for Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price. Retailer may follow it or may just disregard it.

The first thing that puzzles me is that all these formulas start with a retail price. Why? We are talking about an invention. We are talking about a new product with no sales history.

It appears very clearly to me that the formula should start with all your production costs, distribution costs, etc. of course including all the profits and/or royalties that wholesaler, retailer and inventor are working for.

And this is not a simple question at all, as your costs, and hence your prices will be impacted by a number of factors. How many pieces will you be manufacturing? How many geographic markets? What distributionn Channels?… Stores, ASOTV, Catalog, Mail Order, Door to Door? Internet?… Manufacture in China, Honduras or USA? (And this is the other issue I discuss below)

Then you get your full cost. Then, you estimate two things: 1) What percentage you are entitled to profit from your efforts, and 2) How much the consumer will be willing to pay for the product.

The answsers to these questions should help you determine:

1) Is the necessary retail price reasonable? Will it be paid for by a reasonable number of consumers?

2) Is it then a profitable product? How profitable is it?

3) As a result of 2) Do you want to proceed?

And there you go. If you have a completely new product, how else can you go about it? (And “New Product” is what defines an invention as an invention) I don’t understand the rationale of a backwards approach. Retail price is a result of costs, and not the other way around. It may be affected by other facts, but only after you eestabblish that the product may be sold by say between this and this number.

Now, The Asian factor.

I write about this because I love my country, the USA, and I think there’s a little more to it than meets the eye.

The commerce of the 21st Century is ruled by a new global paradigm, that no opposing campaign will be able to overcome. This is just the beginning of a whole new era.

It all started when the world ceased to be polarized between two antagonizing powers, and West Europe became one singular organization trading under one single currency. The changes were further catalyzed by other economical and political factors around the world. e.g. China and India emerging as industrialized countries.

Lastly, and perhaps more determining is the fact that technology and communications have for good or for bad made the planet a very small village. This is a fact.

Italian auto maker Fiat will be bringing their famous “Topolino” soon to the US. (I think the engine is only 900 cc.) Many motorcycles have more engine than that. China is making a car that retails for US $2000 (in China). I heard yesterday on TV that India already has a car for about that price. They may eventually bring them to Europe, and yes, also the US. (Of course with import costs & Taxes that price would be dramaticallyy higher) “Yugo” failed in the 80’s. That was then. This is now.

On the other hand, Toyota, a Japanese company makes cars in the US. Employing US workers. (And, incidentally, they’ve been having unprecedent recalls lately). They do it because manufacturing here is much more cost effective. This enables them to compete in this market. I am sure Japanese people don’t resent this. Same for Honda, mazda, etc.

This a heavy, highly technical industry, but it serves to illustrate the point that the market is the world, and that the goal is to get as much of a share as possible. And you manufacture where you need, in order to compete and hopefully succeed. I know it is not the ideal situation, but unfortunately, we have no control over it.

It can not be denied anymore. The world as a market is a very small village today. The solution is not condemning manufacturing abroad, when manufacturing in the US will triple the retail price of the product, IMHO.

We certainly need to adopt measures to adapt (no pun intended) to the new paradigm. Refusing to manufacture our product wherever is more cost effective, to then profitably commercialize it in the US and EVERYWHERE in the world will actually cripple our competing resources, and ultimately weaken our economy by depriving us of employment in wholesale and retail areas. This includes advertising, banking, insurance and a long list of many other collateral industries that may benefit from the successful merchandising in the US of products made abroad by American companies.

This benefits the American public by making products more affordable and by activating other sources of employment and stimulating the circulation of good old money, the blood of the economy.

This is non-related to inventing, but since we are in the subject… What I, as a citizen absolutely deplore is “Customer Service” and “Technical Support” employments located abroad, by banks, insurance companies and technological product companies, which do not benefit the American consumer at all, or enable that merchant to level the field for fair competition, because that is not the case. The rates and prices remain the same for the consumer.

That is absolutely Un-American, and I think there should be legislation against it. This practice is simply designed to increase the profits of a corporate elite.

Please, no flames. Please.

Disagree all that you want, but please no insults.

posted January 29, 2010 12:53 (
)

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sleepyhead's Avatar
Julie Brown
sleepyhead

Hello Joaco, My response is only about pricing: I think knowing your costs and what the market will allow go hand in hand. Doing market research before you apply for a patent will kind of tell you the price range. Knowing that, one has to try to keep the manufacturing costs within a certain parameter.

Because my products are Proudly Made in the USA, my costs are higher but the market won’t let me raise my prices to accommodate the percentage of the profit just because I choose to do it this way. I could make a lot more if I went off-shore but I’m a Veteran and this issue is important to me.

Never has it crossed my mind that I am ‘entitled’ to make a certain amount: my decisions will be what determines that amount (and, right now, the economy). My decisions have included: purchasing goods (for manufacturing) which are made in the USA; the going off-shore issue; and selling to catalogs which I found to be really brutal.

Although I knew from the beginning that the pillowcase product was not going to make me wealthy, I knew I had a good idea and it was going to help a lot of people: (with sleep deprivation and such and especially saving money on the heating bill.) So, another decision: should I go ahead because the pillowcase will help many even when I know I will make less profit? Sure – that’s what worked for me but might not work for someone else. And, maybe the TYPE of product has something to do with the decisions.

Thank you for the education about those companies.

posted January 29, 2010 14:36 (
)
vergulito's Avatar
Joaco Colmenar
vergulito

Julie; I fully agree with your market research approach, and respect your position about the location to manufacture, and where to purchase your materials.

The ‘entitlement’, appears to be a subjective, semantic issue. Anyway, I think whether you obtain it or not it is an inherent premise of any effort, to feel entitled to a reward, and how much that reward is for you to be interested in commmitting to it.

Thanks for your comments, and best of luck with everything.

posted January 29, 2010 15:30 (
)
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Mark Reyland
markreyland

Actually Joaco the equation works from both ends towards the middle.

Let me explain.

Add – Cost to manufacture () Display cost () Fright, Terrifs, Taxes (=) Manufactured costs.

Now start on the other end, MSRP (/) 2 = Sell in price (assuming the retailer will work on 50% Net Profit)

Now add – Manufactured costs () sales of 10% of sell in () Retailer Discounts of 5% of sell in (+) Royalties of 7% of Sell in = Total Manufactured Cost

Total Manufactured cost – Sell In = Gross Manufacture Profit.

You see the MSRP is the key to how this works. So developing an MSRP is a huge step accomplished by research of comparable products in eth category and the geographic market you want to operate in. I can tell you, MOST retailers will in fact sell it at the MSRP because if you know what you are doing the MSRP is a balance between profit and volume.

That being said, many of the goods you buy have inflated MSRP stickers so you feel like you are getting a good deal….that’s all just show, the manufacturer gave the buyer the market MSRP regardless of what they may have been asked to print on the label.

For the record, I (like most manufacturers) would LOVE to make everything here in the US, but you as a consumer won’t let me. You simply refuse to pay the price I need to get when I’m paying a union wage, or a kid who thinks he should make $50.00 an hour, or huge TAXES to pay for all the spending, or the insurance rates we drove up by suing each other all the time, or the medical costs of having employees…..or any other of a thousand reasons why if I put that product on the shelf at the real made in teh USA price, you would walk away and leave it there while you looked for a lower price product.

posted January 29, 2010 16:00 (
)
vergulito's Avatar
Joaco Colmenar
vergulito

That is what I can not comprehend, Mark. Where do you get that retail price? This can only have some meaning after the fact.

The equation certainly works both ways, but IMHO, it is only useful when you use it in advance, as a decision making tool.

The issue is very simple. The issue is determing whether or not the product is viable in a profitable fashion and whether or not the inventor (and any other parties) are willing to proceed.

Then if a market analysis suggests that you can mark up the product an additional X% in light of your (pressumed) monopoly*, you may just go ahead and do it. Or if the market analysis suggests that you need to lower the margin by X%, you may decide to proceed anyway, also in light of that monopoly; or else, decline to proceed; or… sell at your intended retail price capturing a smaller share of the market. It is your call but it is to be made in advance.

Planning, by definition is done ‘a priori’, not ‘a posteriori’. The second term applies to what is known as ‘damage control’ :)

Needless to say that on the other issue we are in substantial agreement.

  • The term “invention” as in “patented invention” implies a monopoly for a period of time.
posted January 29, 2010 18:24 (
)
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Mark Reyland
markreyland

The MSRP is the starting point of deciding if a product can be fiscally viable. You get that through research of comparable items in that category, and frankly by doing benefit detriment analysis of the product and it’s intrinsic values.

Email me (Mark@Obviousideasllc.com) and I will be happy to send you a worksheet that shows how we do the math on a new product. Maybe that will make it clearer.

Also, remember much of this is about experience – that’s why it’s never as easy as some people like to make it sound. Most inventors have no clue what goes into a product either from the design and development or the business side of it. No clue at all.

posted January 29, 2010 20:37 (
)
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Joaco Colmenar
vergulito

Thank you, Mark. It might not be that easy, but it is certainly within the realm of common sense. It is not IMHO that misterious either. Good Nite!

PS: MSRP is only the ’Manufacturer’s-Suggested-Retail-Price’. It can hardly be a standard or a starting point of anything.

posted January 29, 2010 22:01 (
)
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Mark Reyland
markreyland

PS: I’m not going to argue with you about this, I do this for a living, I’m very good at what I do, and I fully understand what an MSRP is for and how it is used.

posted January 29, 2010 22:14 (
)
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Joaco Colmenar
vergulito

I see.

posted January 30, 2010 06:01 (
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karl reed
reed.thegrinch

Mark,I feel its not really the consumer that is the problem or maybe it is…after all we vote these people into office. I think some tort reform and some modifications to import tariffs would go a long way toward bringing jobs back to america…and mabe higher tax on companys that outsource services. I guess that makes me anti free trade! HA! I suppose it’s not as simple as I make it sound but I know a hell of a lot of people who feel the same way.

posted January 30, 2010 13:01 (
)
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Joaco Colmenar
vergulito

The consumer is an innocent bystandard.

Whatever the reason(s) times have changed. The world is different, very different. I believe we as a nation need to adapt, change and make the best of it. If we manufacture abroad, in order to compete, we may be able to provide many other jobs in non-manufacturing industries. And the investors, US residents will bring and spend revenues in the country.

Manufacturing abroad and importing is perfectly legal. The only way to control it is to make it illegal. That is not going to happen. And if it happens, we have then become a totalitarian nation, and the effects are going to be much more devastating. We also need internationnal trade.

I think the corporate corruption and ineptitude has been more harmful than any governments. (Not to excuse anybody. Politicians are indeed highly responsible for all of this)

Just look at the Banking and Auto makers debacle. We need to understand why we got here. And the domino effect this debacle has had in practically all other industries.

We also need to accept that the world is not and will not be same as the after world war II world that placed us in a favorable leading position. If we adapt, we will succeed. We are a strong nation.

posted January 31, 2010 08:20 (
)
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Joaco Colmenar
vergulito

CORRECTION: ‘Bystandard’ should rread ’bystander. Sorry.

posted February 01, 2010 07:05 (
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Evelyn Katz
ekatz

Just like the horse-and-carriage thing. It only makes sense if they are placed in the right order :)

posted February 01, 2010 19:03 (
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Leonard Jackson
deaconlen52

THIS IS A GREAT THREAD!!! Thanks EVERYONE for the insight.

Mr. Joaco, I THINK I agree with the notion of it being a New Product and NOT starting with the retail price. Just made a lot of since to me, but then again I’m new at this.

Ms. Julie makes a bunch of sense with the market research of similar products but, its kind of tough to pin point YOUR product which I’m guess could throw off your projected numbers in the long run… Going with Joaco’s approach seems like it lands your more accurate projections.

However, I haven’t the slightest clue what is going on when it comes to the equations. I understand the terminology to a certain degree but, it just get very hard to follow after a while. I am a layman inventor, not familiar this whole process.

One problem that I am having is arriving at final numbers when it comes to manufacturing cost, shipping cost, display cost, etc…

Its probably too general to ask but, is it as simply as just going through this whole process to fully get these numbers or will I be able to just contact people and ask???

Also, is there an chronological order in which I should begin to try and arrive at these figures?

And @ Mr. Mark, seems as if the US is full of politics, EVERYWHERE. I’m wrestling with the Idea of manufacturing oversees. And they way you put it at the end, its definitely the consumer’s fault!

posted November 02, 2010 19:58 (
)
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Roger Brown
rogerbrown
Insider Points

One thing to consider that is a big factor in this equation is the consumer and what value they will give the product. Look at the price of a product such as the new 3-D TVs. They will be higher not just because they are expensive to make but because they know the consumer is willing to pay more for them. Even if they could sell them for exactly the same price as the current TVs they wouldn’t because it devalues its worth in the consumers eyes.
Look at a bag of potato chips. The majority of the bag is waste. When you open it up the bag is half full. They put on the bag that it is sold by weight not volume. Again this is done to give the buyer the perception they are getting more for their money. Your favorite music CDs could be sold for $4 and the company would still make a profit, but they sell for $12 to $20 because they know the consumer is willing to pay that price to get the music. The same goes for sporting events. The atheletes get the high salaries because people are willing to pay astrononmical prices for the stadium seats, the $60 for a $10 t-shirt, etc. Other than concerts, fairs, sporting events, amusements parks, etc are you willing to pay $5 for a hot dog?

What the market will bare can sometimes be completely outrageous due to our own stupidity and our willingness to put up with it. Look at the Tickle Me Elmo doll. It was considered to be a decent seller when it was being introduced to the market. All it took was Rosie O’Donnell, who was very popular at the time, to have it on her show saying who cute it was and everyone should go out and get one. A feeding frenzy started. The doll sold out and parents that didn’t get one for their child were panicking because they felt they were letting their child down by not getting one. That fueled supply and demand. What did you see next? People selling a $15 doll for $2,000 and getting people to buy it at that price just so they could be the proud owner of that doll. You can get that same doll on Ebay today for $9.
Look at Oprah, all she has to do is say how much she enjoyed reading this book or the book is her choice for the book of the month club. The book is an immediate number one seller. That is the Lemming affect. The person is made to feel they are not part of the majority of society if they don’t have the same thing as the “In” crowd.
Sometimes consumers are their own worst enemies when it comes to driving up the price of goods and services. I had a friend that worked for the company that made the sew on labels for Izod, jordache, playboy and a couple of other well known companies logos. You take a $8 shirt and put the sew on label and they were charging $40 for the same shirt. He sent me two large bags with these logos in it saying they sold them to the companies for 5 cents per 100. So, just to have a logo that cost mere fractions of a penny sewn on the shirt consumers were willing to pay 5 times what the shirt originally sold for. What does that tell you about the consumer?

http://www.rogerbrown.net

posted November 03, 2010 04:25 (
)
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Leonard Jackson
deaconlen52

excellent wisdom Mr. Brown. So does this mean that Mr. Colmenar is correct in that the equation should start with the retail cost?? Ms Julie’s idea of market research combined with the info you just provided about the consumer demand seems to be the most important variable…

posted November 03, 2010 07:23 (
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Joaco Colmenar
vergulito

Thanks, Leonard. It’s just Joaco :o). Had forgot about this.

posted November 06, 2010 18:13 (
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Roger Brown
rogerbrown
Insider Points

Leonard, take a look at what Mark, Julie and myself posted. It really is a combination of the three to get a better picture. You need to consider all the variables to get the whole. Pure math without taking the consumer into the equation will only give a portion of the answer.

http://www.rogerbrown.net

posted November 07, 2010 17:13 (
)
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Joaco Colmenar
vergulito

Leonard;

Thanks for reading and contributing to this thread. I think it is actually very primal. Very simple. Very Basic. Without any solid success in this field to back up my theories, i still firmly believe them.

Paper and pencil are great tools. I suggest that we all use them. I regret not duly using them in some former plannings. I greatly regret this mistake. But, anyway this is not a paint-by-number process. Keep this in mind.

It is not easy. It is very difficult. (Actually i’ve witnessed it may be easy for those gifted or lucky ones) Then, of course; luck, timing, serendipity, are of course uncontrollabe desirable factors. And vision, instinct, determination (guts? or as we say in spanish, COJONES) may be developed, through experience.

Just don’t make ít harder on you with unnecessary smoke and other emanations.

Avoid rubber stamp formulas. Resort to common sense. Question me. Question everyone. Think for yourself. Think for yourself. Think for yourself. Think for yourself. Think for yourself.

I think you are in that path already. As Hemingway said: “Develop a built-in BS detector” That is truer now than when he said it. And no field is more vulnerable to BS than this invention field.

Again, thanks for reading and contributing to this thread.

All the best.

posted November 07, 2010 19:43 (
)
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Joaco Colmenar
vergulito

To make it even ‘grayer’…

http://tinyurl.com/2aospxk

posted November 15, 2010 10:12 (
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