Firstly! Thank-you all !

Jack-& Margaret—nothing but great advice and suggestions coming from you, I’ll take a look at all options, and maybe find a solution.

Greg & Gizmo—Great points !
and Gizmo-I’ll have to do more extensive searching—especially next big idea !

Jane,Julie,Eric& Don—Thanks for the comments,

Comments, good and bad, are all educational .

I’ll check with you all first next time!

Stu

What if you simply took a “baby steps” approach and simply try and replicate what you’ve done a few times? I know you said you used two rakes in order to produce that one prototype. It seems to me that if you could acquire the pieces separately (we already know that handles can be obtained anywhere) you could begin assembling them on a very small scale and see how well they sell. If you sold them even at a small net loss to the cost of the materials you would still be able to generate the sales that people apparently want to see. As I indicated before, The handle should be very easy to produce yourself starting with a simple hardwood dowel. My guess is that would be less expensive (excluding your time of course) than purchasing handles pre-fabricated. As long as the rake portion isn’t too exorbitant in price you wouldn’t be digging yourself too big a hole.

For example, let’s assume that the rake heads can be purchased for $10 each and the dowel for $5. Based on the method you used to produce the prototype, you could then assemble your new rake for $25. If you could sell the new and improved rake for $20 each sale would only be costing you $5. Obviously, that’s no way to do business in the long run, but at this stage of the game the goal is to develop a proven sales record.

Lastly, I would just echo Gizmo’s words and make sure you’ve really done all your due diligence regarding competing products that may already be out there.

Jack

Stu,

Can you get some other farmers interested in investing/partnering?

Stu, Is there any way you could produce data / evidence that your tool saves x amount of time and energy, etc.? You will have to know the amount of time it takes to switch your tool and then use that as a comparison to the time it takes to use two tools. Take the amount of time and multiply is by the number of times they have to switch tools or by the amount of area / acres covered.

I think you could come up with a formula and the time saved AND the difference between buying two tools or your one tool would be great selling points for both farmers and their ‘employees’. Ease of use and time-savings might be enough to get some to make changes but there is always the next generation coming into the buying arena: the rakes, etc. they acquired with the farm, will wear out and then they will be ready to, or need to, replace what is there. Save time, save on replacement money….. I’m sure there are other angles – I’m not a farmer – I can kill Geraniums and Lantana (sp?) faster than anyone I know. Good luck.

Stu, I’m a bit slow this morning…a lot floating around my head. It was a mucking reference…got it.

I think the magical question is, will the consumer see the adjustable angle head as that much of a benefit over other mucking,manure fork rakes. Especially if there’s added cost to the consumer !

I’m not trying to bust your bubble believe me. I just see way to much risk involved if your planning on using your own $$$$$

Good Luck with it.

I’ll have to go and actually use the manure fork for the next few hours as I’ve neglected my chores long enough today
Thank-you all for the advice, comments, help, time, ect…
Keep it coming-I’ll check in later on today.
Have a good day all!

Eric
I was referring to a manure or bedding fork which I assumed from your picture you would have had some dealings with.
What I meant was I thought you could attest to how awkward a large area would be to rake using a manure fork-as it’s angle is not comfortable to rake with.
Sorry for the confusion.

Jack,
I’m almost certain the Dragon’s had never seen a rake like this ,Jim Treliving actually said"I think you may have the million dollar rake here" edited out of the clip. So I believe they wanted sales.and it was not a similar item issue as than was never brought up in the full taping of the episode.If a deal was done and they didn’t like the similarities they would have opted out during due diligence.

So I’m just wondering what an inventor is to do?
I thought I was on the right track.
this is what I thought was the right track

Create OR improve an existing item.-I thought I had improved the usefulness of a regular manure fork into a comfortable raking and scooping tool, by modifying the fork like no one else had done.—search the patent office ect

Ask people-other than your family and friends-what they think-98% positive response including wanting to buy one or more.

Find investors The Dragons as they all liked the product I thought one would bite for sure-
Kevin O’Leary" it’s very eloquent"
OR
Go to manufacturers of similar products and ask them—no interest—
again
ask people-EN members seem to like it-

Listen -to all the advise I can
now what?

P.S. similar or not I still can’t find a rake that’s as great to use as this one and if you do a lot of raking and picking up then at least get a manure fork as it saves the back.

Stu, I don’t believe I have tried your invention, perhaps there is another vonhuber out there. However I would find angle adjustability helpful.

Stu

Right or wrong, Gizmo and Greg have illustrated what may have caused the dragons to pass on your idea. Even though those other products are different in that they don’t allow the user to change the angle, they nonetheless LOOK an awful lot like what you have. I think Margaret may be onto something. It may be that your best bet would to try and pitch that ajustable angle feature to the guys who manufacture the various types of rakes/forks. I’ve seen rakes where the width and be vaired but I’ve never seen one that allows someone to change the angle…

Jack

Margaret,
the handle can be moved manualy from an upright-raking angle, to the angle Gizmo’s examples are showing-the scooping angle.
Gizmo
I can’t find one with the better angle for raking
there are so many manure,stable ,forks but again none incorporating the ability to move the handle to a useable raking angle.
I think VonHuber( hope I spelled it right) can back me up as to the poor angle of the original product, when one tries to rake the lawn.
I’ve approaached any yard tool co.I could find that accepts new product submissions.

Stu,

So my understanding is that you have a mechanism that turns the handle and that is what makes it unique from the other forks/shovels? Have you approached any manufacturers with the angle of partnering with them rather than getting quotes to hire them? If you can work a deal where they would take on the initial expenses, it could get you started.

http://www.alpacabytes.com/2009/10/13/the-art-o...

http://shopzlot.biz/products/Future-Fork-muck-r...

http://www.hgtv.com/landscaping/easier-landscap...

http://www.equishopping.co.uk/item-headtohoof27...

O.K.
I know the manure fork is exactly what i based mine on the- problem with them is if you want to rake up anything other than a pile of manure—the angle is all wrong ,awkward and uncomfortable.
I was using a regular rake to rake the lawn and then scooping up with the fork, two tools and usually the manure fork was left an acre away.
I thought eliminate one tool-change the handle placement and viola- two tools in one.
I was unable to find any other rakes using this idea of dual handle placement , so I thought I had a winner.

Jack,
The bigger barriers to entry are the costs of dies, patents, lawyers.
So without that money in place, it’s hard to move forward.

Thanks all

I’m with Greg on this one. You need to take a step back and think what your doing. When I watched the video I immediately thought of the “930” Tractor Supply Chain stores. I went to there site looked in the lawn tools/garden tools forks/rakes. This is what I found.

http://tinyurl.com/6jtgnbx

http://www.tractorsupply.com/lawn-garden/lawn-t...

Stu

I found this handle, which appears to be hardwood, here:

http://www.ronshomeandhardware.com/797-21-60-Pr...

That link turned up when I Googled “rake handle” and got this link:

http://www.thefind.com/garden/info-rake-handle

I guess what I’m thinking is that you should able to purchase a rake handle as an off-the-shelf item that shouldn’t be too expensive. The rake portion of course is a different matter. That appears to be the key component. If you can figure out how to get someone to replicate what you did for a decent price then you should be able to start building your own. Does it have to be ABS or would metal suffice?

Jack

Yes I’m in Canada but we file a provisional patent with the USPO and we’re protected in Canada for one year after the non provisional patent is applied for-I believe, correct me if I’m wrong- please.

Jack,
Thank-you for the advice I’ll take all that I can.
the rake head was prototyped by me using “cut and paste” methods-it turned out to be a great prototype but I destroyed 2 rakes to make one -not practical .It’s made of reinforced abs-so not too expensive a material.
The handles are 1 1/8" threaded “tuffy” handles -off shore order min 5000 units.I found a few made in USA as well.
I didn’t commit to producing any units never mind 10000 but you can see where the manufacturers have “got” you, or try to get you.

That’s where I’m at- good idea , good response, protect-able, profitable (I think), no capital.

Thanks everybody for the encouragement and advice—good or bad I (we) need to hear it.

Greg

I missed your earlier comments. The first link is to a site in the UK so perhaps that’s moot? The second one shows something that’s a bit different in that it doesn’t appear to “transform”.

Stu

No, no, no, NO! You’re not going to commit to 10,000 ANYTHING now or anytime soon! Okay. Let’s back up a bit. From the video the key component appears to be the metal rake portion and the handle appears to be just your regular, off-the-shelf wooden handle. Is that correct? Assuming I have that right, the handle is a no-brainer. You should be able to acquire those for not much money or even fabricate them yourself from a hardwood dowel from Home Depot or your local lumber supply center. Clearly, you must have had the top portion fabricated somewhere to create the prototype. How and where was that done? If the same people who fabricated the prototype are the ones telling you their MOQ is 10,000 units, start looking elsewhere! It seems as though ANY manufacturer that can fabricate that part could or should be willing to do a pilot scale run of about 100 units or so. This sort of thing is done all the time. You may pay a hefty premium to have such a small number produced, but it will still cost you a hell of a lot less than 10,000 units.

I pretty much had to do the same thing with my product’s packaging component which is just a basic PVC clam shell. The manufacturer had an MOQ of 15,000 units but I had them make 5,000. I just had to pay more per unit. The cost per unit was still pretty reasonable. This sort of thing is done all the time. Any manufacturer with a clue knows that for most new products it’s very common to manufacture on a pilot scale first. This is a VERY common practice. If you can get 100 – 200 of metal rake portions made, the handle is easy. Then you could start selling them yourself and see how they do. You could end up deciding that it’s more profitable to do it that way than trying to find a licensee that’s only going to pay you 5% of the wholesale price. Lastly, you may have to consider going off shore to get the primary component made. That can get a little complicated, but it can’t be too hard because I was able to do it and Lord knows, I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer…

Jack

Very funny, Don.

I believe Stu is in Canada so he might not be obtaining a US patent??

You can get a design patent provided you haven’t exposed it publicly for over a year. Tractor Supply is a good place to start. They have an annual buyers show for new products. Get their commitment then get the product produced. Good luck. I shovel a lot of manure myself but its mostly in my sales pitches.

Thanks for the clarification – I had no idea.
When I go to Google Patents however, and I type in “rake shovel”, I see numerous existing issued patents for this combination – all with varying degrees of differences.

Just playing devil’s advocate here…..Is it possible that even with dual handle placement, that there are already enough of these on the market that perform the same task to cause manufacturers to not want to jump into the game late?

Again, I am a fan!… but …curious how one tackles these issues as I may run into them myself one day.

Greg
a rake can’t be patented
neither can a manure fork-that is what mine is based on
mine has a dual handle placement so that is the unique part.

Jack
Without giving exact figures as mostly it was RFQ’s and material costs based on weight for the plastics, handle costs on an initial run of 10 000 units,with shipping , packaging, labour.
the patents are 10k to 20k so I always go the with the higher price.
dies 75k+1st run 50k+patent20k=145k
or somewhere around there.

????
From my earlier comment below….
I would highly recommend researching these before going even one step further….
thoughts?

http://www.dobies.co.uk/Shop/Gardening+Equipmen...

http://www.hgtv.com/landscaping/easier-landscap...

I found a number of other similar tools in just a 30 second search….to pursue and market could be infringing on someone’s patent..????

Stu

Can you explain a bit more you’re getting those numbers from, in particular, the $150K? That sounds pretty steep. You obviously have a prototype so at least one has been made. How did that come about? And if I may ask, how much did that cost? Have you considered the possibility of manufacturing it yourself? I’m curious to know what the process was to get the one you have. Then the question is, can you extrapolate from there? Since you describe yourself as a farmer I’m guessing you may have participated in a few farmers’ markets. That would seem to be a great venue for selling a product like that…

Jack

Jack
That was a little bit of a joke—-the costs to get the product to market are in the $150K + range so sales of 144 units would = $1071.00 per rake so no real commitments ,on paper ,but after it aired all the people who know me asked where to get one or more, so it has sales potential
I’ve approached all the major and some smaller yard tool/rake manufacturers that are open to accepting new idea submissions—no interest.
I’m a farmer so time is always an issue and one can spend only so much of their time on dream ideas and then back to the work that puts food on the table.

Stu

When you say “I can prove sales of about 140 units as of right now and that’s just to people who have seen it” what do you have for “objective evidence”? (That’s a term that comes from my quality auditing days.) What I mean is do, you have commitments from people in writing such as order forms with potential cutomers names and quantities? That’s the type of thing I would expect to carry significant weight if you’re looking to entice a manufacturer/licensee…

Jack

Jack brings up a great point. Sometimes you can get a manufacturer who is already selling a product to Home Depot/ Lowes to take on your product. If you don’t have the cash to pay them to manufacture, you may be able to get them involved by giving them a percentage of interest in the company (like what the Dragons would have done for you.)

You can put me down for one too! The suggestion I gave above actually came from Ed Zimmer of the The Entrepreneurs Network. This is what he wrote to me when I asked him for suggestions regarding the Magic Toob:

You have no chance of selling to Lowes or Home Depot – but companies already selling to them do — & many of those companies would like another product they could sell them (if there’s not a lot of hassle to do so). So go to those stores & look around their lighting & electrical sections to see if there are any companies displaying products there that might be interested in yours — & just contact them (phone or email) to see if they are. (Just jot down whatever info is on the product package – company name or brand name) — Then look for them on the web to find their contact info (& if you can’t find them, solicit the help of a nearby reference librarian).

Ed Zimmer
http://TENonline.org

Jack

plus Brad and Greg
=144
getting there

Thanks Jane! That’s what most people say-looks like a great idea.
Margaret-That’s the other thing most people say-I’ll buy 1 or 2.
The problem for me is the costs are too much for your average farmer-dies-materials-patent-lawyer ect…
The major retailers also haven’t shown any interest.
The prototype is of good usable quality but is not in a market ready state so could not be sold this way.
I can prove sales of about 140 units as of right now and that’s just to people who have seen it
Plus 2 for Margaret
So 142 potential sales

As a neutral viewer, I loved it and would consider buying one….Around here we mainly rake them onto tarps and the kids pull them to the pile….or we blow them…..or I suck them up with the mower…..but I can tell you there is a market…….IMHO, it appears there are possibly others who have your same idea…see link below..I am no pro on the subject so forgive my ignorance on the intricacies for which you may have invested time and money differentiating your product…but just at first glance it appears some may have backed away due to having seen it before…..
http://www.dobies.co.uk/Shop/Gardening+Equipmen...
No matter, I say keep inventing!!

I agree, great product! Enter it in the Open Search or manufacture it yourself.

I agree with Jane, I think that product has great potential. You might try visiting some large chain stores that carry gardening supplies. Check out similar products and find out who the manufacturers are and then try contacting them. This all assumes you have a your pitch all worked out, a sell sheet, etc. You already have the prototype as well as the video from the Dragon’s Den. (You can just edit out the part where they nix the product.)

I swear I’ll never understand how some products make it to market and others get passed on. The dragons were idiots to turn you down! Here you have a product that MANY people would by just based on that demonstration alone and you end up striking out, yet the Beer Bong Belt (see my “Really??” post) finds a licensee! Go figure…

Jack

Stu, I thought your presentation was great! Don’t get discouraged by the show. I have a feeling if you could demonstrate to them that your idea was selling, someone would have invested. They seemed to really like the idea, but needed to know it was going to give them a return on their investment. The only thing going against you there was that you couldn’t prove that. It looked like a market ready product you had there. Could you start selling them yourself on Amazon.com or via its own website (or both)? Have you tried contacting Lowes or Home Depot yourself yet? I would definitely buy one or two!

I thought it looked like a great idea, Stuart! Did you submit it to the Everyday Edison’s search? If not, you could still become an “Insider” and enter it into the Open search. If there isn’t anything else like it, you’ve done so much with it and it seems to work really well, those Dragons were dumb!! I can picture that at Lowes right now!