It varies upon many things such as:

How complicated is it?
How well of a prior art search is conducted?
How many drawings are required?
How may office actions (arguments with the PTO) are required?

You can use a patent agent, rather than a patent attorney and save serious money. A patent agent can do everything a patent attorney can do except file or defend against a lawsuit.

Agents will generally do either equivalent or better quality patent applications as/than attorneys.

Personaly, i write my own patent applications. There is a reward in and of itself in having written your own patent application, besides saving money.

Hey Cody,
Glad to hear that you wright your own patent application. I was thinking that maybe I would be able to do it myself. I also thought of geting an agent. Please give me some insight. It would be a utility patent which has no moving parts and is only one piece (pretty simple). I must make up my mind on which way to go about it.
Gladys

Gladys,

I wrote my first two patents also. Save the dough and learn a heck of a lot in the process. If you are considering this route get – Pantent It Yourself by David Pressman, Nolo Press. It was exteremly helpful. The are many other books and the USPTO web site also has a lot of infomation. It will seem overwhelming to start, but if you keep at it and read, read, read it will begin to make sense. Remember a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step and the patent process is a journey that takes years.

If you get stuck or have a question that’s what this forum is for.

Good Luck!

Mark,
I will get PATENT IT YOURSELF. My journey is just that, a journey that will have its rewards in due time.
Thanks for the info. I know these issues have come up in the past, but now is the time for me to move in to the patent stage.
Thanks again,

Gladys

I used a friend who is a very good patent attorney, and it cost about $7,500. I know it was a lot, but I work full time and didn’t have the time to devote to trying to figure it out myself. I didn’t know there are patent agents, though…how do you go about finding one?

Paul,
I think if those who want to share, can state the type of patent they got, the cost, and who assisted them.
Three answers without complication without patent numbers, just simple enough for us to come up with an average cost, being that all inventions are different.
Gladys

Isn’t that a little like asking “How much is a Car?” …what kind?, what options?, what city?….

Mark
http://inventoropinion.blogspot.com

i recently wrote a feature article on a woman who used a patent agent, who she said was half the cost of a lawyer….

what do you think mark reyland?

paul, then there’s always the stephen key method…..

I think I never read what you wrote in your “feature article”

What do I think about Patent Agents vs Patent lawyers…. life is about getting what you are willing to pay for…Inventing is no different. There are good folks on both sides of that fence.

But Isn’t it like going to a Nurse instead of a Doctor? For small things it may be fine, but I don’t think I would let the nurse do surgery on my child. I’m sure the additional education involved in becoming and attorney is worth the extra cost in the long run. One little thing the attorney knows that the agent doesn’t could make or break your patent.

After all, you don’t know what you don’t know….isn’t that right Eva?

yes mark, that’s why i send everyone i know to your informative blog…..

you have the knowledge to really help people and save them much misery and grief….

and ps the feature article is on my blog which is being submitted to various publications…. : )

www.TheInventorChronicles.com

please read about teresa joyce….. i have not been able to post recently because of my two ghost-writing opportunities…..

I don’t read your blog Eva….I’m sure any more than you send people to mine.

Although I suspect a public conversation between you and I is a great way to drive traffic to it, and to drum up business for your licensing and prototyping sales efforts. Of course I don’t, and wouldn’t, endorse either one of those things at your current state of education and experience in this industry.

I’m not being mean or trying to make you feel bad, so please don’t. I wouldn’t endorse anyone attempting to sell information about inventing, licensing, or product development, with just 6 months and no formal education in the business – I’m sure you can understand that.

As I’ve said both publicly and privately I think you have what it takes to do great things in this business – if you take the time to learn it first.

Please let us know what you are “Ghost Writing” so when we read it we can frame the information properly.

Mark
http://inventoropinion.blogspot.com

a person uses a ghostwriter when they do not have time to smooth out details of their own personal writing…usually with a legal ghostwriting agreement, the expert will take all the credit for the book, while the ghostwriter gets financially compensated, minus the glory…..and anyway, who said the writing has anything to do with inventing ; ) i like non-fiction as well….

and mark, my blog was intended to be stories about other inventors…..my first love is writing and writing about other people….my life is not that interesting…..your story would be very interesting with all the years of experience and success that you have in this industry….and it would be so easy for you since you write very well….

i only mentioned my blog because i was referring to an inventor who used a patent agent….your blog is what has the 1.2.3. steps to inventing….why should i not tell everyone about your blog?….why would you not want any public kudos?

and mark, i’ve never seen you as a mean person, just someone who is so passionate about this industry that you want to protect others and want to see others succeed…

Aww…Thanks Eva. Maybe one day you can write my biography. Not sure anyone but my mother would buy it, but who knows?

Oh, and maybe Ron, he always loves a good book!

Mark
http://inventoropinion.blogspot.com

i would have ron edit the book, because he’s very good at punctuation and has an amazing way with exclamation marks….

There are pretty identifiable traits that are different between a patent agent and a patent attorney. This stuff needs to be accurately known for ANYONE that wanders into this invention business as patents can be so critical and so expensive!!!!!!!!! They are “bred” if you will….from two different places.

There are benefits using each or arguments for using both, but they also do different things, have a difference typically in expertise, not necessarily good or bad. Maybe it may be best in most cases to use both or suggested consultation with an attorney if you use an agent.

I am 99% certain they both have to pass the same test on patent law to lawfully write patents as a business for other people.

Yes…this is a riddle….people that claim to be experienced in this field should be able to CLEARLY define the typical difference and when to use which!!!! So hit the books and find this so important answer!!!!

I have used both. I will continue to use both and in some patent situations you must if you chose an agent on the beginning…but may need an attorney later.

This is simple stuff! C’mon now!

To Paul: For your statement. KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT about your patent #. Do you want you and the company you choose to get the all important jump on the market share????

Or would you like to list your patent # so I can re-engineer around you, or just call my buddies in China and outright infringe and see if you even challenge me in court. (An example of coarse)

Keep your patent # as private as possible until you have a product hitting the market…unless you want to spend your inventing career chasing people down, suing them and waiting for years for payment…maybe…but the heartache defenitely will come.

For my money, a patent agent can be just as effective writing a patent as an attorney, BUT when looking for either one I think the most important criteria is choosing one that 1) Do they really listen to what you are saying and really understand the invention. 2) Do they have a solid background in the field that the invention is part of ? A solid background includes: A) Education and training. We know they must have at least a four year degree, what else? Did they used to work in the industry or maybe worked for the PTO. B) How many patents have they represented in the field of interest have been granted and how recent. The more they have and the more recent, the more confident I will be in their abilities. C) References, who will stick up for them and say they have done a good job.

I know the difference between and patent attorney and a patent agent, but first what is the same for both: 1) Both must pass the Patent Bar Examination. 2) Both must have at least a four year degree from an accredited collage or University in an approved technical field, such as engineering, or an area of science, such as biology or chemistry. 3) Both must continuously update their knowledge of IP issues. 4) The USPTO typically regards patent agents to be just as well qualified as patent attorneys, as long as they are registered with the Office.

The difference between patent attorneys and patent agents is straightforward—patent agents are not attorneys-at-law, and as such, cannot conduct patent litigation in the courts or perform certain other services which are considered by the local jurisdiction as practicing law. For example, a patent agent could not draw up a contract relating to a patent, such as an assignment or a license, if the state in which he/she resides considers drafting contracts as practicing law. The USPTO Rules of Ethics and Professionalism, effective as of September 15, 2008, specifically clarifies that patent agents may not provide an “opinion of validity of another party’s patent when the client is contemplating litigation and not seeking reexamination” because such activity “could not be reasonably necessary and incident to the preparation and prosecution” of a client’s patent.

Another interesting point is that patent lawsuits as a percentage of patents granted in the U.S. have remained constant at 1.5 percent over the last 15 years.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/inventions/energyte…
http://www.patenthawk.com/blog/2007/10/patent_f…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_agents#Unit…

As pointed out to me by someone far more knowable than myself since I am not an expert is that patent agents can appear as an expert witness in a trial and may have a better engineering base than an attorney because a lot of them come from industry. Again, it is best to ask a lot a questions including the ones I previously mentioned.

Don…that is not true…we all are supposed to be contributors to each other to help because this field is too big to master and become successful. You literally need a team to become good enough for one licensing deal.

To say who knows more than the other is frivilous and irrelevent.

What gets me is the beginners don’t realize that as the experienced in this field have come to realize they can never know enough in this field so what is the point.

This is why you better make DAMN SURE you know your stuff before you offer inventor advisory services to people on these forums…which seems to keep going on…from forum member to fellow forum member….and with insufficient experience to be even called a novice in this field.

Further Don…I have sought, studied and hung around invention experts now for over 20 years now. Any beginner can obtain a piece of knowledge and teach an expert any day…it’s possible…as there are literally millions of pieces of information one can learn in this field we are all exploring.

My reasoning for comparing agents to attorneys, and coming to the conclusion that agents will either do equivalent or better quality patent applications is based on these philosophies and analogies:

1. Attorneys generally DO NOT like to work for independent inventors. Most prefer to work for the corporate client. There was even an article about this fact in INVENTORS DIGEST, I believe in the July ’08 issue. Furthermore, those that do work on an independent inventors patent, almost definately also have corporate clients. If your invention is in the same field as one of their corporate clients, who do you think such attorneys loyalty will be toward? This is one of the reasons that it is almost always NOT IN AN ATTORNEYS BEST INTEREST to write an excellent patent application for an independent inventor. It is in their interest to write a mediocre application for such inventors.

2. I once had a martial arts instructor tell me that brown belts will generally fight better than black belts, though both are advanced rank, the brown belts were found to be more alert, try harder, and make fewer mistakes. Much like most vehicle accidents happen within 3 miles of at least one of the drivers homes; due to the driver being too comfortable with the surroundings.

3. Since pretty much the only thing agents do is write patent applications, they tend to be able to concentrate on such specialty.

4. Also because of the above, they tend to be more attentative and customer conscience toward independent inventors.

Cody,
I agree. Lawers get confortable and content. while agents stay on their toes, and have a greater satisfaction from helping one get a patent. If your idea is not complicated maybe an agent would be a good option.
Gladys

Newcomer to the boards, but as a Patent Agent who just finished law school and waiting on my bar results to become a Patent Attorney, I figured I’d share my thoughts. Agents and Attorneys take the same USPTO exam; attorneys are those who have also passed a state Bar exam.

I would disagree that attorneys don’t want to work for independent inventors, but the law firm institution does often result in multiple attorneys working on the patent and can mean higher fees than an independent Agent. On the other hand, you get multiple, experienced eyes reviewing the work. A solidly written patent that avoids a lot of newcomer mistakes is far more valuable in any future lawsuit, after all.

As far as loyalties toward a corporate client, always let any prospective agent/attorney know who you plan on selling or licensing your invention to. A good attorney will tell you if those plans conflict with an existing client and either get permission from you and the other client to do the work or decline to write the patent in the first place. I’ve passed several prospective clients to other firms for just that reason.

Any attorney who deliberately writes a bad application is committing malpractice. That’s not to say there’s not some who would do it, but it does weigh in favor of using a larger, established firm rather than an independent – they have a reputation (and insurance rates) to protect.

Blake: Hope your Bar results are good.

It’ll be interesting to hear from you in a couple years after becoming an attorney…and, I would guess, successfully working in a law firm with several other attorneys, nice billings and weekly billable hour targets…all with mostly corporate clients (typical with most patent attorney firms).

I venture you may miss the energizing buzz of grassroots patent practice that most of us independent patent agents truly love. We have the unique pleasure of dealing directly with the inventor herself/himself. Decades in this business and my engine still is fueled by the nascent fumes of the exhilirated inventor. Can’t move my feet under my desk with all those prototypes stacked about.

All fun? Nope. A patent examiner’s priggish rejection is as much a kick in the chest for me as for that nice retired Doctor client on the banks of Lake Tahoe..or the teacher of challenged students in Rescue, CA..or the Colorado Springs homebuilder. But collaborating our way through those issues has made for the kind of lasting friendships I wouldn’t expect from a Corp R&D director.

Well…sorry to run on, but you get the point. I’ve known dedicated, bright attorneys and agents…and I’ve known numbskulls practitioners of both types I wouldn’t wish on my worst client. If you want a decent representative, ask around. When you make contact, ask for references and call each one…with pointed questions about the service and personal interest they received.

This is my experience with patent attorneys and agents at law firms. Most of the time patent applications are written by agents or junior attorneys to keep the cost low. In this instance there may not be much of a difference between the two. I also worked with senior attorneys that were partners at major law firms that did a terrible job while at the same time their agents did a superb job. I noticed that the agents and attorneys that have some patent litigation experience tend to avoided costly mistakes.

Spending Less For a Greater Outcome

Below the low cost Invention that made me money,before tooling and any Patent’s were Paid for,Making a Invention give you a positive return,this is what it is all about,not saying to people,wow he spent this amount on his/her Invention,instead saying the Inventor spent this little for this great return


Dear Derek,

After few days of evaluating the Chalkline Protractor, h ere are our proposals:

Proposal 1.

Term 1.

We will pay USD3000 as down payment and USD5000 after we get the patent. (USD8000 in total)

Term 2.

If the product is unpatentable, we will pay another USD2000 for buying the idea. (USD5000 in total)

Term 3.

We will pay for the tooling and all the production cost, along with the application fee for patent in Taiwan and China. You will be the inventor while we will be the owner of the patent.

Term 4.

For the deal you close, you will get 6% for each unit sold, including “Company Name” and the UK distributor TCL; while 3% for all the other transactions.

Term 5.

In case of less than 50,000 units sold in 3 years, the commission will be 3% for each unit sold to Company name, the UK distributor name and the deals closed by you, and 1% to all other transactions.

Proposal 2.

Term 1.

We will pay USD2000 as down payment and USD3000 after we get the patent. (USD5000 in total)

Term 2

If the product is unpatentable, we will pay another USD1000 for buying the idea. (USD3000 in total)

Term 3.

We will pay for the tooling and all the production cost, along with the application fee for patent in Taiwan and China. You will be the inventor while we will be the owner of the patent.

Term 4.

For the deal you close, you will get 10% for each unit sold, including Company name and the UK distributor TCL; while 5% for all the other transactions.

Term 5.

In case of less than 30,000 units sold in 3 years, the commission will be 5% for each unit sold to Sontax, the UK distributor TCL and the deal closed by you, and 3% to all other transactions.

We are aware that our buy out term is different from what you have in mind, but please understand that with us paying the tooling and patent application fee in order to ensure the rights, we’re having certain level of risk involved in the product. Company name will need to sell at least 40000 unit to break even and even more for the other proposal. Hence, we sincerely hope we can both sacrifice some for the future goods.

If you wish to amend the summary of our proposal, please make amendment and we will revise the terms.

Once we reach agreement on all the terms, we will provide the contract for you immediately.

“This Invention Patent Research and Market Research started in July 2007,The Invention was Licenced in Febuary 2009 to This Taiwan Manufacture and I accepted the first Proposal Total Cost of this Invention to Me $3,000 AUD Mostly for Computer Design and Artwork,all done without any Patent applications by me the Inventor,Never used a Non-Disclosure Agreement for this Project,I just researched the Manufacture’s well in Taiwan before showing them the design,in a e-mail enviroment for Bussiness.

I keep Patent Attourneys busy in Taiwan lodging Patent’s for Manufactures under Asignment of Patent right all within a Licence Agreement Contract,Basicly if your Invention is Good Enough this can be done.The above e-mail proves that it is possible”.

Just Keep your Invention out of the Public Domain Until you have a Licence Agreement with a Manufacture and have your Assigned Patent’s Applied for before going Public,Like this one.

Regards Derek Pater

FOR THOSE OF US THAT DON’T HAVE AN EXTRA $6000 PLUS —I GOT A PROVISIONAL PATENT TO PROTECT MY INVENTION FOR 1 YEAR IF YOU DO A LITTLE HOMEWORK ANYONE CAN FILE THIS BY THEMSELVES AND IF YOU NEED HELP YOU CAN GO ONLINE AND ASK WWW.USPT.GOV THE COST IS ONLY $325.00+

SOMETIMES YOU MAY WANT TO GO THIS ROUTE IF YOU REALIZE YOUR INVENTION IS NOT GOING TO BE THE MILLION DOLLAR ITEM FOR THAT YEAR

ONCE YOU ESTABLISH MORE INFO ON THE MARKET AND KNOW YOUR PRODUCT IS GOING TO SELL THEN YOU CAN INVEST OR FIND COMPANIES THAT WILL INVEST YOUR $6000 FOR YOU

BUT REMEMBER THIS IS ONLY A PATENT PENDING STATUS AND YOU WILL HAVE TO REFILE EVERY YEAR

Jason,
That’s right and if you spend that $6,000- on research and development you are more than likely to have a better outcome, your new product Invention must be brilliant firstly.

Have value that a Manufacture will be very keen for it, considering only 2% of all Patented Inventions make money for the Inventor in real profit?

Most Inventors do this bit backwards, you need to hold out until even if you lodge yourself that your design is complete and not a smashed together drawing of something that has never been tested and only a dream, research and more research, set the bar as high as possible for your design.

All a Patent is buying you is “hope”. You Hope to License it and get royalties from the Patent if it is approved and if a U.S application you only have a 50% chance of getting a Patent.

What happens if a better product comes a long and the manufacture exits the license agreement because you own the Patent?, then you have a patent you are stuck paying for that you can not License.
When I License my Inventions I sell Innovative designs that have enough Innovation that the Manufacture will bank roll the whole project, I have already done this 3 times and counting.

Just because you License your Invention is also no guarantee for your product making the market place or doing very well.
The Reason I like to Assign Patents from the very start is then it becomes the manufactures baby and financial problem, you can still get your royalties.

Plus having a clean skin Invention, removes the issue’s has the Patent been approved, I make the Patent attorney in Taiwan work very hard, because I lean on them through the Manufacture to have very good patent searching done even before the manufacture lodges.

It is in the manufactures best interest to do this part right, after all they are protecting their own investment.
All you are after is royalty cheques no lawyer’s fees Patent attorneys or contract lawyers why?
Half the time I provide my License agreement or the manufacture provides their Fair and Reasonable brokerage and development agreement that also costs them $600- USD.

July 2009 sitting down in the manufactures office in Taiwan talking the their Patent attorney that the manufacture pays for about how the claims should be lodged for my Stair Square, that is the right time and space to have a Patent lodged.

Jason,

It is good that you have filed provisional application at US$325, but you will have file non-provisional application and you need to have the skills on patent drafting and specification. I appreciate your concern on attorney charge $6500 for drafting a patent. Well you can think to outsource the patent drafting work to various countries.

I wrote my own provisional patent and paid only the costs associated with filing it. I hired a patent attorney to take care of the utility patent application before the one-year window closed.

In addition to paying the attorney to prepare the application, I’ve also had to pay them to respond to an office action and conduct a phone interview with the examiner. When you add the $1,055 fee to cover the issue fee and publication fee, I’m looking at a total between $10,000-12,000.

About 10 years ago, I paid about $8000. And that doesn’t include the renewal fees which are pretty high.

Initially I had my lawyer file a provisional patent that probably cost me $1000. In a year that $1000. Was subtracted from the total cost of a utility patent. My Patent Attorney wrote the provisional so that it could be easily converted to a utility Patent. This way I paid for the patent in stages. The total was probably around $5000. I just recently received notice from the USPTO office that my second patent will be issued. Made the last payment $1400. I should be receiving my patent very shortly.

With my first patent for AeroLeash I believe I paid around $5000. Ten years ago provisional patents were not an option. I held this patent for many years I also had to pay a few maintenance fees, which cost me around $2000. Paying renewal maintenance fees is difficult for the inventor. This is the time when the inventor has to reevaluate weather to continue with the invention or not. I trusted my instincts and paid the renewal maintenance fees. The good news is when a company like Everyday Edison assumes the rights to your patent they also assume the maintenance fees.

I filed my first patent in 1993 with the help of a patent attorney. I wrote the patent and made the drawings with the attorney writing just the claims. Had one office action. Total cost was $8,000. My current patent that I wrote myself, that was just allowed, cost a total of $1500 with the bulk of the money going to pay fees to the PTO. I used a patent agent for a review plus I have friends who work with patent attorneys also reviewed the material. This almost patented product is pretty simple with few moving parts, but writing the claims was still tortuous. I also had multiple conversations with the patent examiner who really went out of his way to help when I had my office action.

Last year July sitting down with the Taiwan Manufactures own Patent Attorney working out the claims for my 3rd Invention the Stair Square, with all the prior art, the first claim locks all the others that follow due to the totally new method.

Design cost’s $10,000- recieved upfront payment $5,650- and 6% royalties, also extra $2,000- USD for each successful Patent currently 6 applied.

That’s the right time, the tooling is finished and the off tool samples will be at the practical world show in Germany February 2010.
Different approach to the same Inventor issues, all Patents and tooling paid for by the Manufacture, different world over here in Asia when it comes to Inventions.

Trust, Friendship and Honour, the Manufacture asked me to sign the assignment of Patents right first and do the contract bit later, no problem for me, the manufacture has honoured all verbal agreement, now in a legal document and I now have up to 10 new projects (of the Manufacture to finish) to help them with for more royalties for those other projects also.

Patent maintenance fees sorry never seen them, only a wall of Patents at the Manufactures office, with my name as the Inventor currently 9 patents moving to 20 plus in total with different manufactures.

Sorry the Traditional method does not make sence to me!

www.realinventions.biz

All your wishes is to get the patent at minimal cost. Though you can’t do any on official fee, but atleast you can think to reduce the cost of patent attorney charges.

I have worked with many inventors and helped them to draft and file a non-provisional patent application in US, at an affordable prices for inventors.

A lot of great information and real life experiences in this thread. Hopefully that will be an eye opener to Inventors thinking this is all quick and easy. I would also like to point out a couple of missing pieces. One, just becuase it is patentable does not mean it is marketable. This is over looked by many Inventors as they get further in debt. Second, just because you have a patent does not mean it will cover the final manufactured product. A good example is my toy. It started out as “Toss and Score” I got it licensed using only a sell sheet. I had the signed license in hand. We started discussing the play factor of the toy and came up with other options to make it more action oriented. We added the catapult feature and removed the velcro aspect. After two months of back and forth discussion the new toy “Power Pitch Horseshoes” was born. Look at my website and you can see the original sell sheet I sent them and the final product. It is easy to see the marked difference in play and function between the two. Had I spent the money for a patent on the first toy it would not have covered the second final product. I would have lost my money for the first patent and then have the issue of do I pay the maintenance fees to keep it active.
As most people know I approach companies with a sell sheet looking for a license. I have been successsful multiple times and have two more licenses for products due out late 2010.
Once I get a yes it is up to the company to file and pay for the patent to protect their investment. This is why I have never spent over $100 on any product I have licensed. I have a low risk investment for 3% to 12% royalties of the companies profits. The average royalty is 3% to 5%. I got the 12% due to it being a product in the nuclear industry.
Of the people that have posted on this thread and spent money for patents look at how many of them have gotten to market versus those that have not. (hopefully that is a YET). Another point is the company no matter how good you think your patent is are going to have their lawyers look it over for holes that might bite them as they move forward with your product.
You also have to look at how long have you had the patent prior to getting it licensed. I know Inventors that have had the patent 6 years of its life. So, the company knows that this is time they have lost on the patent life going into the agreement , which can affect your royalty percentage. You need to consider what life expectancy you think your product will hold in the market. If it is a fad idea paying for a patent may be a waste of time and money. The same goes for a niche product. You don’t want to spend $12,000 on a patent when the product is only bringing in $1,000 a year in royalties. It will take you 12 years to break even.
I want to make sure everyone understands I am not knocking patents. I want people to seriously look and see if patenting fits their needs. You also have to be willing and able to protect your patent in court if you feel someone is infringing on it.

http://www.rogerbrown.net

Roger,
Great post!
I had the same with my second Invention the Chalk line Protractor, the final design changed by 20% to suit the Manufactures requirements for marketing and function, because I had no patents applied, they made the changes at the very last minute and lodged the Patents in reference to the Above deal and new design.

I will be very controversial is saying the future for Inventors to get a License Agreement is in Asia, just like Manufacturing has shifted to Asia so has the License Agreement process for 50% of all Inventions, why because deals happen easier over here.

China is the new economy for new products and their need for all products is growing

www.dereksconcepts.com.au

Derek Pater, thank you so much for the information about how to license your invention to a manufacture without paying for a patent. I am curious to find out a couple of things: 1. Do you find it’s necessary or helpful to have a provisional patent in place before you contact manufacturers? 2. At which point do you reviel your idea to the manufacturer when you contact them? 3. How do you protect yourself form them “stealing” your invention? Thanks!

Alice,
Personally I do not have any Patents Provisional or full applications, all the Patents for my Inventions are under assignment of Patent rights covered in the License Agreement or brokerage and Development Agreement, the number of Patents with my name as the Inventor is 20+ and growing.

1. It is helpful to have a Provisional Patent in Place

2. Normally after the NDA has been signed or “In Good Faith with the manufacture I already deal with”
3. NDA (Non-Disclosure Agreement) or nothing I take the risk, jump in boots and all!

This something very interesting, talking to other Inventors who post on this site, consider this!
If you have a NDA signed and that is breached you have legal recourse, if you have a Patent lodged you cannot do anything until your Patent is approved, that could take 2-3 years plus court time 4 years later?, then you need $250,000- in the bank to defend your patent, what happens if you lose?.

All for a 3% chance of success?, yes the traditional method works but I see it destroy Inventors all the time, they end up with nothing and broke!

Roger is right you must have an Invention that is marketable!

www.dereksconcepts.com

Derek, I like your method. It involves little risk and it works for you well!! Thanks for sharing it with us.

I have a couple more questions as I am figuring things out:

1. If I understand it correctly, if you have a patent you can license it to more than one company and for predetermined time period, right? I can see your method being very low risk, but you can only sell your ideas to one company and for good, isn’t that true?

2. Also we have an idea for a product that would need a cover that you can take off and wash. I was wondering if it would work better for us if for this idea we got a patent so that we could license it to company(s) and manufacutre covers ourselves. That way there is little risk involved for manufacturing the product iteslf for us and more profit from selling the covers that are much easier to manufacture and there would be predictable number of them to make based on how many products are sold. Also I think licensing it to different companies may work better in this case, because the idea is the same, but the actual demensions would be different, because they fit different brands other product differently. This is a traditional method I was thinking about. How would this work with your method?

Thanks!

Alice,
I will make an effort to give you some of the Picture on this, others will also jump in I am sure! The many bits that I miss out on! The Inventors Maze Welcome or game of Snakes and Ladders.

Remember I step out of most people’s comfort zones!

I do not think you would find many Inventors who would Assign Patent rights before signing the License Agreement?, this was to test my Honor with them and I passed the test, well things have changed for brilliance since then, I was asked to do this by the Taiwan Manufacture in July 2009, within 8 months this product will be seen for the first time in front of buyers in 4 weeks time, I was paid as per the verbal agreement and now it’s all in a contract, see I am flexible we do the verbal agreement first and that is honored later with a Contact, business flows very fast like this, no B/S like in the west.

Here is that product “Stair Square” in the yellow about 18 Products in the slide show

Another method I use is to bring pressure from a Distributor to the Manufacture, so I will contact the Manufactures in Asia and the distributors they supply at the same time, with the new product, get the distributor to show the retail buyer another key before any money is invested in tooling.
Remember Inventions are the dream factory, it takes a lot of effort to make dreams comes true, the overnight success is a 10-20 years achievement for most people,

There are many different options and I cannot cover them all.

1. yes if you have a Patent then you can License it to more than one Company, yes for the period of the terms in the License Agreement, That’s correct if a Manufacture does bank roll the whole project they will get ownership of the Patent under Assignment of Patent rights, making you the Inventor on the Patent and the assignees owns the Patent but also has to pay all Patents costs, you cover yourself in the License Agreement trading Patent rights for Royalties and upfront Payments.
Remember once you assign the Patent rights in most cases they are gone you can never get them back, so provided you are comfortable with the company you are dealing with that’s the key, relationships.

I have one Company that is happy to License 4-10 new Inventions from me a year, we have a brilliant relationship and they are very honest and trustworthy, received a Skype call from the owner of the company today he says, give me as many that you can that are worthy in the next 3 weeks before the Cologne Show, 37,000- buyers pass through worldwide for practical products.
From my experience owning a Patent, has become a curse for many Inventors (Money Black Hole and a nightmare basically), others there is true Value in Having a Patent, you have something of value, you can License and Manufacture’s fight for!

The problem is Patents only have true value 50% of the time either they are not needed, its knowing which Inventions to apply a Patent, that’s the hard part, I see so many Inventors hit the wall when it comes to Patents the costs just destroy them, when you apply in say 9 countries that gets very expensive I know that the manufacture of the Roofing Protractor is always telling me this detail, never forget this day get a E-Mail says we decided to apply in only 9 Countries nearly fell off my chair that day.

Personally I take maximum risk and never Patent (I do make sure the Invention is kept out of the Public Domain), my goal is always to get someone else to pay that cost, and I will almost always ask other Inventors to at least have a Provisional Patent Applied that gives them piece of mind also!

2.
another method is to apply your Patent and then once you get in the License process try and shift those Patents cost’s onto the Manufacture, you could assign them, then you have the same thing the own those rights for the Life on the Patent are owned by the manufacture.
You can Manufacture yourself also, more profits and money risked, all your eggs in one basket there!
This is a very risky Industry having an Invention to License, in the past I day traded Shares made money, but got out its not for me.

This would have to be one of the most inflated industries in the sense of what people invest and the returns they get, because the success rate is very low 3% or so.

www.realinvention.com.au

Thank you Derek – I am learning a lot from your posts! YOu must be a briliant man to have those manufactures be so interested in your inventions.

Alice,
Like most Inventors I had about 40 Inventions only 6 passed my personal evaluation and of those 6, 4 are Licensed and the 5th in negotiations currently, the 6th one will not make it by the looks of it.

Can you imagine doing deals with manufactures you have never met?, getting the money wired to your account after the contract is signed, just did a outright sale of a Invention, so one off payment, the invention cost me $200- USD and sold it and got paid $2,000- USD, it was more about the process and method not the $$$, prove to myself it can be done, that was for my Hammer Mate product.

Because of the Inventors brilliant new Hammer designs within 1 day of the same manufacture receiving the sample, I was asked for a verbal approval to make an identical sample of it to the correct manufactures requirements, so they can do a lifetime test on the new Hammer.

This Manufacture will also bear all Patent and tooling costs provided it meets their needs for the market place, they will also ask permission to show their clients a sample who supplies Home Depot.
This way the value is in the Invention it’s self and not the Patent, this means yes the Patent has value but only when the new product is in the market place, not before and I think this is a real issue Inventors miss, yes Patents are valuable, but only once the new product is selling.

Just proved that to myself today talking to a Manufacture, I have the opposite problem, convincing a manufacture the value of the Patent, because this manufacture prefers to Pay the Patents under Assignment, so yes brilliant when you have a clean skin Invention and not that good for one with a Patent, the best way to put it is just because you spent $15,000- on say a Patent it will not always add value in the U.S the answer would be yes if you do not have a Patent you have less, but Roger Brown has proven otherwise? how about half right!

This Part is very fickle, depends on the Company size in Asia, 100 Million per year turnover company in China says you must have a Patent, they make products for Major Power tool Brands like Bosch.

Remember its not that easy to find companies who work the way I like, but it can be done as I have proven, spend your hours (Time) on your Inventions and less of your money if you can!

www.realinventions.com.au

I understand what you are saying. If I knew I could find someone to assign our ideas to, I wouldn’t care that we are making less profit from it then if we patented it and licensed it or manufactured it ourselves. How do we find those manufactures? Do you generally look for smaller ones?

Alice,
I have more stories for you, one that is currently happening, let you know about that one in 10 days.

Look for smaller Taiwan Manufactures who turn over 4 to 30 Million dollars per year

interesting post for you

http://www.edisonnation.com/forums/other/topics...

Alice try here http://www.edisonnation.com/forums/market-resea...

http://www.rogerbrown.net

Alice,
The world is a very small place now with the Internet, so I use Internet, Skype Video Calling, E-mails and with Old School Business methods of verbal agreements first and contracts later.

here is another Link for you http://www.edisonnation.com/forums/patents/topi...

www.realinventions.biz

Alice,
This is about the Hammer, the manufacture has had the original sample only 4 weeks ago and the different prototype is about to arrive at their office, this is great because once a Manufacture makes a commitment like below, means the likelihood of a License Agreement with this Taiwan Hammer Manufacture is very high, remember this is all verbal, contract done later!

Try doing this is the in another country and most are sleeping at the wheel, they take 4 weeks to think about your New Invention,I get a answer in one day, currently the fastest response indication of intention to License is 2 hours and 6 Minutes.

Hi Derek;

Best Regards;

www.realinventons.biz

My first patent cost $355.00 – December 2003. Patents now cost $550.00 to file (small entity)I wrote it myself. It is a utility patent and has 7 claims. I wrote the patent and filed it myself. the first fee was $1,000.00 Next fee is $555.00 look at eth format of other patents and wording similar to your patent if you plan to write it. change what you have to to fit your concept. I used a patent agent when my patent was initially rejected. It cost me less than $400.00 to rework the claims, and the patent was issued. my first patent took me 6 months to write, my second, 2 months, the third 1 month. it gets easier as you learn

Derek -

What a fantastic point!!! It sure gives inventors that are looking for a licensing agreement – with a very limited budget, something to consider.

“If you have a NDA signed and that is breached you have legal recourse, if you have a Patent lodged you cannot do anything until your Patent is approved, that could take 2-3 years plus court time 4 years later?, then you need $250,000- in the bank to defend your patent, what happens if you lose?.

All for a 3% chance of success?, yes the traditional method works but I see it destroy Inventors all the time, they end up with nothing and broke!"

Your statement really got me thinking…is PPA even worth filing? Thanks for your insight.

Holly,
To be fair the other Perspective is the value of having a Patent, currently I am working directly and indirectly with a Large China Power Tool manufacture, they make products for these brands under Contract, they turn over 100 Million Per year
Dewalt ,Panasonic ,Porta Cable ,Black and Decker (Dewalt) and Bosch.

We are currently in a game of Patent Chess I call it, the Inventor has the Australian Patent at final stages and the manufacture wants the Inventor to nominate more countries under the PCT Patent application in other words, the inventor due to the Patent process has limited time to Nominate and also have the License Agreement signed and sealed, so to speak, Plus the costs to the Inventor
They are trying to devalue the Patent field of claims so we get squeezed on the License Agreement, this is a big stakes negotiation, and 2 Million needs to be invested by the power-tool Manufacture for tooling and development.

So where are getting hit with the other applications for similar products, this is getting very interesting and I will have to call on my Military strategy training and 5 years sales and market research experience.
Getting a NDA signed can be very difficult in the West, that’s why I get the OEM Manufacture in China or Taiwan to sign my NDA, or a very basic 2 page one.

Then I approach the Brand say Black and Decker, I do not have time to sit still so, I indicate I already have a NDA signed with their OEM Manufacture in China, 2 days I receive a detailed response from the USA office.

This Invention stuff can be a very slippery slope and just because the Inventor spends a fortune will not guarantee success, throw more money at an Invention is not always the right answer.
Mark talks about dialling in your Invention for marketing and price point; I do that with the Manufacture and Distributor, also feedback from the Retail Chain Store Buyer, so the new product is setup right from the start (not at my cost), and with my second invention made a profit before tooling and Patents are lodged, Keep your overheads to a Minimum for your new product!

Let the distributors or Branded Company do the marketing! at their cost!

www.realinventions.com.au

Derek- Great points! So much to learn. Like Rodger, you are quite savy when it comes to this field.
So please keep posting your progress! Thanks for all your input it’s greatly appreciated!